Gunder Frank Contributions to Public Discussions
on list-servers
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 23:01:00 -0500 (EST)
From: Andre Gunder Frank franka@fiu.edu
Reply-To: a-list@lists.econ.utah.edu
To: franka@fiu.edu
Cc: a-list@lists.econ.utah.edu, Albert J Bergesen albert@U.Arizona.EDU
Subject: [A-List] capitalist crisisis?
gunder frank comments below IN CAPS FOR ID PURPOSES ONLY on and after the quotes that
follow:
Martens: >A worsening of the economical crises that rock the capitalist economy also
>marks the new phase of the general crisis of the world imperialist system. >It is
its second characteristic.
DEPENDS ON MEANING OF AND RELATION AMONG
- 1.ECONOMIC CRISIS
- 2.GENERAL CRISIS
- 3.CAPITALIST ECONOMY - 4.IMPERIALIST SYSTEM
-- # 1 MAY BE SEVERE AND LONG [WE DONT KNOW YET IF ''IT'' IS - DEPENDS ON WHETHER WE ARE
REFERING TO A KNODRATIEFF B THAT BEGAN IN 1967 AND THEREFORE IS already LONG AND DEEP --
FOR MUCH OF WORLD MUCH DEEPER THAN 1930S -- BY HISTORICAL STANDARDS, OR IF REFERENCE IS TO
CRISIS THAT BEGAN RECENTLY- WHEN?- OF WHICH WE DONT KNOW YET IF IT WILL BE LONG OR SEVERE
-- IF THE MEANING IS THAT #1 > OR = # 2, AND # 2 IS MEANT TO REFER TO THE SYSTEM'' WE
LIVE IN, THEN MOST ASSURDEDLY #1>#2 IS not ABOUT TO BE.
-- IF # 1 AND/OR # 2 ARE READ TO REFER TO AN ECOLOGICAL CRISIS, THE PROABILITY IS INDEED
HIGH, BUT NOT OVER A VERY SHORT/IMMEDIATE PERIOD. IMPORTANT ALSO IS TO WHAT EXTENT THE
''NORTH-WEST'' CAN EXPORT ITS OWN OR HOME MADE ONE TO THE ''SOUTH-EAST''. AND WE CANNOT
EXCLUDE THAT THE ECOLO9GICAL MALTHUSIAN PROBLEM MAY ONCE AGAIN BE RESOLVED BY TECHNOLOGY.
MARTENS MAY BE TOO OPTIMISTIC OR NAIVE, BUT SOLAR AND HYDROGEN POWER OR NUCLEAR FISSION,
MARINE AND SUB-MARINE SOURCES, BILOGICAL SMELTING, GENETIC ALTERATION ETC CAN not BE
EXCLUDED.
--- CAPITALIST ECONOMY? THAT IS MEANINGless. THERE IS NO SUCH DISTINGUISHABLE EVOLUTIONARY
OR OTHERWISE ANIMAL. NEITHER IS THERE A SOCIALIAST ONE. NOR WAS THERE A FEUDAL ONE AND THE
FEUDAL/CAP ''TRANSITION''- THE ONE THAT WAS ONLY invented IN THE 19TH CENTURY AS AN
IDEOLOGICAL CONSTRUCT TO LEGITIMATE THE ALSO only ideological CONSTRUCTS OF
CAPITALISM/SOCIALISM/COMMUNIUSM, not to mention > transitions bvetween them
--- IMPERIALIST SYSTEM?
----- IF SOME SORT OF SPECIAL KIND /STAGE OF CAPITALISM, THEN IT IS AS & MORE
non-SENSICAL THAN THE CAPITALIAST ECON/SYSTEM -----IF IT REFERS TO SOEMTHING LIKE THE
HARD/NEGRI ''EMPIRE'' AND ITS CHEW UP OF THE ENVIRONMENT AND OF COURSE OF THE MAJORITY OF
THE WORLDS PEOPLE, THEN FOR NOW MAYBE YES ----- BUT THAT HAS NO RELATION TO ANY PUTATIVE
CAPITALISM ...
This is the heart of the A-List stated discussion. Are we really seeing an economic
crisis, or a consolidation of the imperialist hegemony? I think this is a question begged.
YES THAT IS THE OR A QUESTION WE ARE EXAMINING. IS US HEGEMONY/POWER/ABILITY TO LIVE OFF
THE FAT OF THE WORLD LAND BY ITS PRESENT MEANS ON RISE/CONSOLIDATION/DECLINE/FALL - N ONE
OF THE ABVOVE OR ALL OF THE ABOVE?
BUT WATCH OUT: WE WILL MOST ASSUREDELY NOT GET ANY ANSWERE/S - OR EVEN WORSE, GET THE
WRONG ANSWERS IN THE ILLUSIORY BELIef THAT WE GOT THE RIGHT ONES BECAuSE THEY ARE DERIVED
FROM OUR A,B,Cs - IF WE TRY TO ANSWER THESE QUETIONS BY GETTING ENTANGLED IN NON-EXISTENT
CAPITALIST/IMPERIALIST MODES -FASHIONS! - OF DOING THINGS OR THEIR ALLEGED PECULIAR RULES
OF THE GAME OR ANY SYSTEM THEREOF.
Martens: >All over the world, there is a growing awareness that the capitalist mode
>of production is no longer compatible with the simple survival of humanity, >that
imperialism has effectively become a genocidal system.
- THERRE IS NO AND HAS NEVER BEEN A ''CAPITALIST'' MODE OF PRODUCTION - VIDE ABOVE.,
INDEED THERE HAS NEVER BEEN ANY ONE ''MODE OF PRODUCTION'' AND EVEN IF THERE HAD BEEN - OR
EVEN A COLLECTION OF RELATIONS OF PRODUCTION - IT WOULD HAVE AND NOW EVEN LESS DOES MAKE
ANY SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE, EXCEPT - AND EVEN THAT ONLY PARTIALLY SO - FOR THE PERSON/S
EXPLOITED BY THAT ''MODE''. BUT THEY CAN BE AND ARE SIMULATNEPOUSLY, SERIALLY, AND ANY
OTHER-LY WAY EXPLOITED AND OPRESSED AS WELL and and! ANY AND ALL OF THESE WAYS HAVE BEEN,
CAN BE AND ARE FUNCTIONALLY EQUALLY COMPETITIVE IN THE WORLD MARKET, AND WHICH ONE/S ARE
INVOKED IS EXCLUSIVELY A FUNCTION OF WORLD MARKET DEMAND AND SUPPLY RELATIVE FACOR PRICES,
ONLY VERY MODERATELY MODEREARTED/MODFIED - but more usually amplified! - BY POLITICAL
INTERVENTION
-IMPERIALISM HAS BECOME A GENOCIDAL SYSTEM? THERE IS no IMPERIALIST SYSTEM. AT MOST THE
WORLD ECONOMY/SYSTEM IS IMPERIAL/IST.AND YES THE QUESTION UNDER DISCUSSION ON THIS LIST IS
IF AND HOW LONG IT OR WE CAN LAST AS WE ARE. BUT THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH quote
CAPITALISM,IMPERIALISM, GENERAL CRISIS unquote OR ANY SUCH.
WHETHER IT IS NOW MORE GENOCIDAL THAN BEFORE MAY OR MAY NOT BE. 9/10 OF THE POPULATION OF
THE AMERICAS WAS WIPED OUT BETWEEN 1500 AND 1650. ON THE OTHER HAND INCOME/WEALTH
POLARIZATIN HAS NEVER BEEN GREATER THAN TODAY, AND CONTINUES TO GROW, AND ABSOLUTE POVERTY
AS WELL -- THERE MAY BE some AMENDMENT TO THAT IF THE MOST IMPORTANT STANDARD OF LIVING IS
LIVING ITSELF AND LIFE EXPECTANCY IS BY AND LARGE RISING ALL OVER - EXCEPT OF COURSE IN
THE NEWLY ''LIBERATED/DEMOCRATIZED'' RUSSIA, UKRAINE ETC.
WHETHER tHERE IS GROWING AWARENESS OF THE FIRST LINE ABOVE, IS ALSO UNCERTAIN. INDEED I
DONT SEE MUCH EVIDENCE FOR THAT. WHAT IS THE EVIDENCE? AND WHAT IF THERE WERE
''AWARENESS''? WHAT DOES that CHANGE? [ACTUALLY BUSH FATHER AND BUSH SON are AWARE. DADDY
WAS PUSHED AND SHOVED TO RIO THERE TO SAY ''I AM NOT GOING TO CHANGE THE AMERICAN WAY OF
LIFE JUST TO DO ECOLOGICAL ... BUSH JR ABROGATED KYOTO ON EXACTLY THE SAME GROUNDS. BOTH
AND CLINTON IN BETWEEN STATES VERY CLEARLY THAT THEIR 3 WARS PLUS ASSORTED OTHER BOMBINGS
ARE TO DEFEND ''FREEDOM'' AND 'THE 'LIBERTY'' TO PURSUE OUR WAY OF LIFE [VIDE THE TV ADS
IN US ABOUT WE WONT LET THE TERROTISTS WIN BY LETTING THEM HAVE US CHANGE OUR WAY OF LIFE]
I MAY DARE TO LOOK AT/TRANSLATE INTO PLAIN ENGLISH WHAT THIS FREEDOM AND LIBERTY REALLY IS
THAT IS BEING DEFENDED. ACTUALLY , THEY HAVE A POINT. THE POINT IS TO GET WHAT THAT POINT
IS.
After reading the statement twice, I find this to be the only collection of words to which
I can attach any degree of eco-awareness, and I am straining to do it via this slender
rope.
AFTER RE-RE-RE-READING ALL OF THRESE STATEMENTS SEVERAL TIMES, I FIND IT LESS AND LESS
POSSIBLE TO DERIVE OR ATTACH ANY SENSE OR MEANING TO ANY OF THE ABOVE QUOTED AT ALL.
AND IF WE CAN STRETCH ENOUGH TO FIND OR ATTATCXH ANY ECO-AWARENESS IN/TO ANY OF THE ABOVE,
THAT WOULD BE A SMALL POINT GSAINED, ALTHOUHGH FROM AWARENESS TO ACTION, OR FROM A,B,C'S
AWARENESS TO GLOBAL ACTION IS STILL A HOP,SKIP AND JUMP, WITH QUITE A FEW JUMP HALF WAY
ACCROSS THE CHASMS IN BETWEEN.
AND AND AND, NEITHER AWARNESS NOT AC TION NOR THE LACK OF IT HAVE EVEN THE REMOTEST
CONNECTION TO '' CAPITALISM OR IMPERIALISM'' IN ANY OF THEIR BIBLICAL/TEXTBOOK/ MANUAL OF
POLITICAL ECONOMY/ MANIFESTO OF THIS AND/OR THAT DERIVATIONS AND VERSIONS.
ON THE CONTRARY ALAS, AS LONG AS WE FOLLOW/ARE LED AROUND THE NOSES BYAND WITHIN/ THE
BLINDERS THAT RESULT IN THE ABOVE QUOTED - AND ALAS FAR TOOOO MUCH OTHER - GLOBALONEY, NOT
ONLY CANT WE EVER GET ANYPLACE OR RESIST GETTING TO EVEN WROSE PLAC ES THAN WE ARE ALL IN
ALREADY, BUT WE CANT EVEN TAKE A USEFUL STEP AHEAD THAT IS NOT TILTING AT STILL MORE
THEORETICAL POLITICAL AND EVERY WHICH KIND OF OTHER WINDMILLS.
respectufully submitted
gunder frank
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
ANDRE GUNDER FRANK
Senior Fellow Residence World History Center
One Longfellow Place
Northeastern University
Apt. 3411
270 Holmes Hall Boston, MA 02114 USA Boston, MA 02115 USA
Tel: 617-948 2315
Tel: 617 - 373 4060
Fax: 617-948 2316
Web-page:csf.colorado.edu/agfrank/
e-mail:franka@fiu.edu |
|